Works for me. Components are more fluff than looked at I think whereas that AoE is much more pertinent to blasting multitudes of kobolds. :D

I'm personally all for this one. Spell components and arcane formulas all have their genesis in Vance's The Dying Earth, but I don't recall a lot of fantasy novels using those tropes. Middle-earth certainly didn't, but only because the magic-wielding characters were divine beings, either in human form like Gandalf, or a disembodied eye acting like a search beacon on top of a tower. ;)

I'm not a huge mage player, but with what little I have played them I have tended to ignore components too. So, it sounds like a idea to me.

Will not both fit in the header?  But the move is logical.  Key will be, error fixing in the 8th edition.  HOW can we help ensure all errors are fixed to make the old guard players "happy"?  They are there to help, and will help, the chance for them to "thumbs up" the 8th print as "the best ever" I would think is the ultimate goal.. from my point of view.

Cap, I think the intent here is to de-emphasize spell components. So I don't believe space here is the issue, but Steve wanting to make sure the most useful items are available at a quick glance. I wouldn't place spell components in that category. Playing AD&D I never used them, The Gray Book doesn't have them, and C&C I simply ignore them.

As to error corrections, my take on the PHB is this: at some point you have to stop being George Lucas. What I mean is that eventually we reach a point where corrections only serve more to irritate people rather than resolve the issue. Couple that with limited manpower and limited time and it's hopefully easy to understand why these things get past the radar. That said, I personally believe that unless the error is a game breaker it's something best left to an OFFICIAL errata document.

Monsters & Treasure hasn't crossed the George Lucas threshold yet, but I would say that after the next printing of that book, whenever that may be, it will.

P. S. I really have to remember to check this forum more frequently. Two days late in replying? Sheesh!

I always say, "deleting is easier than adding".. so having the components moved to the background info to be used or ignored is fine by me.

If we have official errata and do not hand them over to the printer/editor then shame on us.  Shame on any editor/printer who can update from a list, I would assume that comes with the cost of doing any job, but that's just me.  Fix what you can when you can seems logical and expected by the readers/gamers.  Is the master document that is the PH anything more than a good sized "word document"?  Fix what you can.  I'm not arguing for opinion based issues this should be X not Y stuff, just simple known "errors" be they type-os or conflicting info or a place to tweak or add detail that would be "wanted" by the vast majority.

I'm an engineer and I live and die by the expression, "After the initial design is finished, sometimes we just have to shoot the engineer so we can get this product launched!"  So I am for sure guilty of the desire to tweak and tweak.  But if they are little things, what is the harm in tweaking them.. man power and cost aside?

I know this is a big deal to many and I'm sure frustrating to several.. not trying to pick scabs.

"Fix what you can when you can" is how it should be, and I was one of the first ones to say the books needed some tender loving care. It's not every game that has such a passionate fanbase devoted to making the game better, and I know the Trolls welcome it. But sometimes the fanbase forgets that Troll Lord Games is a business. When they forget, "fix what you can when you can" sometimes morphs into "fix it NOW because it isn't perfect".

As for what the harm is in fixing things, there really isn't any other than manpower and cost. But manpower and cost are rather important if you're a small company needing to put out more product to be consumed. I honestly think a lot of us fail to take those two things into account when making our requests.

I am 100% thankful and aware of the time and effort we all put into this and how the hell they make a living is beyond me.  I'm here to volunteer some of my time editing.  If the base document is something I can have and edit I will take on the task for free with the help of all those "yelling for error corrections" we the users will give it a try.. then it is ONLY a matter of time, not cost to the TLG.  The only real question is, "Can we screw it up somehow?"  If not, let me give it a try.

If I recall correctly, the Trolls have had some of our most experienced forum members look over things prior to publication, with decidedly mixed results. For example, the latest printing of Monsters & Treasure has the annoying gaffe of the armor and shields tables missing both GP and XP values. On that one I dropped the ball by not placing those values in the correction I made and only leaving a comment that the GP and XP values needed to be placed in there. However at least a dozen people, including myself, got an advance look at the new printing prior to publication. Each and every one of us failed to see the XP and GP values were missing. The book went to print, people received it, and then the comments about the missing values came in. This is why on the other forums I have a link in my signature to the armor and shields tables, with the XP and GP values included.

Sometimes however, it's not us. In editing Victorious I worked from Mike's Word manuscript and made the changes that way. Afterward, Mike and his playtesters went through the book and made further corrections, and then sent the finished manuscript to the Trolls. What was printed however was an earlier version of the manuscript.

I can't speak for the Trolls on this one, but I'm fairly sure a community-based editing approach has been proven to not be as effective as having a single person doing the same work. Not because a community driven editing team may not do a good job at it, but because of the editor's secret job of combining the separate "voices" that write sections of a book into a single, unified "chorus" The fewer the number of "voices" the editor has to combine into a "chorus" the better.

I hear you on all fronts.  I also must appologize for volunteering to horn in on your efforts which are MUCH more important than "letting the users" give it a try.  "Farming is easy when your 1,000 miles away and your plow is a pen."

Do what you can, I'm at your disposal.

Cap, there's no need to apologize, and you're not "horning in" on anything. Seriously, we're good here. You and I are simply having a conversation here, not a fight.

In no way do I want anyone to stop looking for gaffes in the books. All I do want people to understand is that certain items have higher priority than others. For example, the missing XP values for the Crna Ruk in Monsters & Treasure of Aihrde would be a high priority fix, but a spelling error such as "affect / effect" would be low.

Great thanks.  I still remember my first week on these boards and you saved me from being shredded and helped me along.  I am forever in your debt good sir.